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Cecil Lee

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Everything posted by Cecil Lee

  1. 1. The room layout(s) : Office and Home should always be considered also, when deciding how your tables are placed. 2. For those doing business, ideally, the first choice direction should/could be your "prosperity" direction. However as I had mentioned above, the layout of the room i.e. the location of the door, windows - are also be be seriously looked, or taken into consideration. Even the postion of things like air-conditioner (in-moveable object) and any beams, any poison arrows caused by corners of filing cabinet(s) etc... 3. Since the Tai Sui will be changing in a few weeks soon, this will become a "non-issue" for your existing desk placement.
  2. 1. Frankly, I would personally keep to SW. For three reasons:- a. #1 is the coming prosperity star as you had mentioned, thus SW is still a better overall choice. b. Current 20 year water wealth resides. c. SW happens to be the very auspicious indirect water wealth spirit location under Period 8. Thus a big water position, here is good.
  3. Oops! You may have wrongly posted your question to the wrong "type" of Feng Shui forum. This forum only practises "Traditional Authentic Chinese Feng Shui". It would be better if you post your question to a "Modern Commercialised so called Feng Shui forum". Frankly, your guess is as good as mine! Quote: Anonymous wrote: I have a question concerning the bagua... I live in a tiny studio apartment, but I think I've done a good job of giving each section of the place a distinct yet harmonious flavor. Throughout the years, I have had a frustrating quandary: some people say the bagua needs to be laid over the home using cardinal directions, and others say the entrance starts on the water side of the bagua (Career/People/Wisdom). I don't know which one to believe. Is there a definitive answer on this? Thanks so much. Is there a definitive answer on this? Thanks so much.
  4. 1. Based on symbolism in Feng Shui, once the cashier/table has been "properly" placed, some feel that "if it ain't broken - don't fix it". Therefore, like you had mentioned, avoid moving or relocating the cashier/table. 2.Usually, if your office space is air-conditioned i.e. moving "air" circulating within the premises and within the cashiers area, this is generally good enough. 3. Depending on the type of business, the exact location of the cashier's table / wall surrounding it, another moving "metal" may be a clock strategically placed. This would depend on a proper on-site review as not all locations may be suitable for it's use. Quote: Anonymous wrote: Q1. My Cashier/Desk Table located in the North-North west region of my office space (with a concrete back wall) and is facing the north corner. Based on 2009 flying star, #5 North region denotes sickness; how to remedy this withoutrelocating the Cashier/Desk Table. 4. Honestly, this shifting about, has to be looked at from a holistic Feng Shui point of view : Shapes and Forms : the interior layout, where is the entrance to the shop / any toilets / any beams above the cashier's area. 5. In a shop premises, a major Commonsense Approach to Feng Shui is about : "shop-theft". For example, placing the cashier's table e.g. without full view of the premises, may encourage more shop-theft senario. While, placing it in the wrong spot can affect revenue etc... 6. Therefore, it is not possible for me just to imagine what you had said below and simply forward you some solutions. As I mentioned earlier under Para 4, considerations has to be made with Shapes and Forms and also what is also missing is the "Flying Star analysis". Flying Star numbers do also play a great part in where one properly sites the cashiers table! 7. With all these unknowns, I would'nt want to "grobe in the dark" and give you wrong advise! Frankly, the "thing about" Tai Sui and Three Killings and even #5 is more critical if one is on a "crusade". Here, a smart person would know that a "crusade" is like an activity. Thus if you are not going to say do renovations (a crusade to modify the shop) or launch into a "war" (simply go to war), what you mentioned below would be of the "lesser" evil. 8. For heaven's sake, we live in a real world! What you mentioned is again "UTOPIAN FENG SHUI". Feng Shui for those living under "Cloud Nine". 9. To test what I had mentioned under Para 8, how many in this forum or the world, where you SHIFT your bed-in-your bedroom to "satisfy" your Tai Sui criteria? Even in countries with high level of Feng Shui believers, do you see shops - every year, changing positions of their cashier table (even if they can do so?) 10. I sincerely hope that you can ponder over what I had mentioned above. Just think about it, please, before jumping the gun! Quote: Anonymous wrote: Q2. If relocation is needed, will it be better if I move the cashier/desk table to the North-East,my back against it thus facing south-west in order to gain the support of Tai Sui? But facing SW also denotes I will be facing 6 Killing (Lui Sha)??
  5. 1. In commonsense Feng Shui, one school of thought is that since many fish tanks are heavy i.e. at least 4 feet by 2 feet, draining water, moving it seems to be a hassle. 2. Thus, some would leave the water wealth position at SW. 3. If you have a smaller water feature, often this is quite useless as often it is not going to help. 4. Logic and Flying Star Feng Shui:- 4.1. You are trying to apply time based Flying Star: Based on the year. 4.2. If one is applying time based Flying Star: the logical question is why only Year based Feng Shui? Why not Month-Month or even Day-Day Feng Shui. 4.3. Every month, the water wealth position changes. Can you afford to place the water feature on rollers and roll it all over your home? Yes/No? 4.4 Even in a specific year, to be more accurate, you should not only move your water feature monthly, or day or even hourly or even within minutes. 4.5 Utopian Feng Shui. What you mentioned comes closer to "utopian" Feng Shui. Yes, can be done, if one wants to do it. Then go for it and scrap the Commonsense approach to Feng Shui. Frankly, the argument "is sound" and there are people who does it, but this are the minority. To some outsiders they may think: "Wow, these people are either too free or has nothing better to do". In my earlier comments, a small water feature is more of a decoration than meant for Feng Shui. And if you rather spent quality time moving your Fish Tank, go ahead! Anonymous wrote: Dear Cecil I live in a Period 7 South2-facing house, and the Flying Stars in SW and SE are as follows: - SW - Base4, M6, W8 - SE - Base6, M4, W1 In 2009, the annual star 8 flies into SE and I'm keen to activate this. Hence if I want to have a fish tank (with 9 goldfish), shall I place it in (1) SW - where the water star8 is, plus SW is indirect wealth position; or (2) SE - where the annual star 8 flies in? In situations like this, which takes precedence, the flying star of the property, or the annual star? Would appreciate your kind advice. Many thanks
  6. 1. In my opinion, it seems like there are a total of 10 steps.
  7. 1. Frankly, it is a diffcult to actually give detailed comments on the new home. As you had mentioned or is concerned about the Shapes and Forms Feng Shui. 2. Definitely, a miltary base is often not an ideal choice for a home. Like briefly mentioned, there is no backing behind the home. 3. It would be "nice-to-have" some sort of backing behind the home. Yes, under the Holy Trinity of luck:- 3.1 Heaven Luck (born with) 3.2 Earth Luck (Feng Shui of the home /office) 3.3 Human/Man Luck (family relationships, bonding etc...) 4. It goes to say that your Russian Feng Shui masters, try to see if you can focus on 3.3 Human Luck. Like good diet etc... 5. Frankly, it is even more true, here. For some of us who cannot or "near" impossible to change our home e.g. in your case, have to live in a miltary camp for the next year, try to boost up the human luck factors, like good bonding with child, good support from both husband and wife. 6. In many situations, this can transend into better luck, as earth luck is about the Feng Shui of your "new home". Many of the factors are out of your control. Anonymous wrote: Dear Mr. Lee, First, I would like to thank you for creating this website which in my opinion is one of the best in the web (after some research). I learnt a lot and found answers to many of my questions from your answers to other members. I am seeking your advice regarding my new house and the place we live that I don't seem to find an exact answer on the net. 1.My familylive in a military base in Arizona, USand I have read it is not good to liveclose to amilitary base let alone inside one which we are. Is there anything we can do to be less affected by it other then maintaining a healthy diet and going to gym every day (was suggested by one of the russian feng shui masters). We already do that but my youngest son was diagnosed with autism recently so I don't know if we were affected by bad energy of the military camp. We can't move out for at least a year as my husband is in the military. 2.We will be moving into anewly built two story housein January, 2009 within the military base. It is a four bedroom house and I love it, itis absolutly gorgeous inside. ButI have noticed that the house hasnothing supporting behind our fenced backyard.There is only afenced warehouse where construction materials kept outside and a public pool along with that and right behind all of that there is a main street. The two sides and the front of the house is surrounded by three houses that are exactly of the same height and style as ours(governmental houses). The house in front of us is across the small street (around 8-9 meters away from ours). I know about Dragon, Tiger and Phoenix and I do't have any of those right. I have a liveland tortoise pet at home that I keep in the glass tank and don't know whether I should place her in the North or on the back of the house. I have read so many cures to improve the landform but now I am confused which one to use. I don't want to use a Bakua mirror as I don't want bad things happen to my neigbour in front of me. I am not in love with pink flamingos but can place one if it is the best cure(by Lillian Too). I bought a grey metalic spinner that twirls in the wind today that has yin and yang in the middle. I bought it with a plan to hang it in front of the house but now I see that the overall star shape of the metal spinner has very sharp edges so I don't know if that will harm my neighbor by sending deadly arrows or harm my house by doing the same. I also bought a black metall spinner with a dragon and yin and yang in the center which I was going to place on the right side of the house from the outside. Please advice as I am really lost on this or perhaps giving too much thought into it. Thank you very much before hand, Respectfully, Umut
  8. You may like to check out this link:- http://www.geomancy.net/resources/theories/fs-8menu.htm
  9. This attachment is in .jpg format
  10. 1. The scientic method is to use the Eight House (Ba Cai) or Eight Mansions to determine the best bed-head directions for your children. 2. What you had mentioned, has more to do with "commonsense" Feng Shui or commonly known as "Commonsense approach to Feng Shui". 3. Here, commonsense prevails. For example, often the Chinese don't want to place a bed-head or a bed close to a window for one or more of the following reasons:- 3.1 "Safety concerns" Imagine, living a ground floor unit or the bedroom is along a common housing board corridor. And if the window(s) are open, and if there is an inconsiderate or cruel passerby, they may even throw in a lighted cigarette butt into the room. And it may just fall onto the "cotton mattress cover etc..." Even if it is not purposely done, just imagine an upper floor chain smoker, who throws his cigarette butt and it may accidently fall into our child's window and onto his/her bed. 3.2 "Windy conditions" Many Chinese are concerned with the "wind". And try to avoid placing their children's bed towards the windows. As if it is windy, it is said to be no good to the child's respiratory tract system. 3.3 "Raining..." If the window does not have a proper "awning" or roof, it just takes 5 to 10 minutes for heavy rain and wind to "wet" the entire bed that is next to the window. 3.4 Another safety reason Assuming that there is no grille on the window or if the grille can easily be opened, a child may just see a "superman show" and climb out of the window via the bed next to the window.. just imagine the consequence, here. 3.5. Especially in Singapore, with high density living, many adults avoid placing their beds against a bay window or an open window. As they "feel very uncomfortable" especially if there is a peeping tom looking into their bedroom, even if they had drawn down the curtains etc... It is this 'feel not so good factor'. 4. As one can see, many of the origins of Feng Shui has more to do with "commonsense" than Feng Shui!
  11. 1. It is uncommon, but can still be painted black. 2. Do take note that under the Five Elements concept, water element colours are: Blue, black or grey. 3. In the I-Ching, water symbolises "difficulty". Thus, (not black) but rather, avoid painting the entire ceiling "blue" or tones of blue. As this represents "water" i.e. diffculty.
  12. Frankly, I can only offer very general advise, as proper Feng Shui or the application of Flying star Feng Shui looks at the three variables such as the Mountain / Water and Base star numbers to provide a better clue or understanding of the current situation. Currently, it is now like the "blind, leading the blind" type of situation. As proper Feng Shui is about mapping the entire senario or situation i.e. exactly finding where , and what type of "leaks" is at your home /room and directly zoom into it. At best, or the current reasonable approach for you is to do "Feng Shui by Trial and Error". Quote: Akay J. wrote: Hi I am the one who changed the single matress to queen mattress and facing the relationship problem (from the below) Thank you so much for your answer After I read your answer, I learned about flying star 3 and my mattress happens to face the north(my head faces north as I sleep, which I chose since I am kua9) So I am thinking the relationship/intimacy issue I've been suddenly having must be because of this If so, 1. should I simply move the matress so my the crown of my head faces east? (east is the only option left in my apt) 1-2 Would it be ok to do that even though the east is entirely floor to ceiling window since I never open the blind covering it? (the part the the head of the mattress would be pushed against would be right below the window but not right against the window ) 2. If I decide to not change my sleeping direction, can I do any alternative cures other than the red shade lamp, for example red candle in the north? or red bedding etc... 3.I would really appreciate it if you let me know of the alternative cures, what options I have and specifics of it since I am very new to flying star And also which option(between moving changing the sleeping direction and curing the flying star 3 while sleeping in the same direction) Thank you so much for your help Thank you
  13. Honestly, Feng Shui is not a cure all. It is a holistic approach to harmony, health and balance of qi. Scientifically, Feng Shui can still be used, but this is "troublesome" especially for newbies or anyone not family with it. As for selling, if one knows how to: first locate where the home has bad star numbers like #3 , #5 and #7, there is a higher chance based on Feng Shui to improve the luck for selling the home.
  14. This is not Feng Shui. But, most Chinese "feel better" or have a "feel good" factor if their buddha statue has it's eyes "dotted". Quote: Tng K. wrote: do we really need to get a buddha statue for kai guang before placing at home for praying?
  15. 1. Usually, an indepth study would have to be done to trouble-shoot what is the problem. 2. Frankly, as you had mentioned i.e. all things being equal e.g. no change in colours except for the change for single to queen sized bed. 3. In my opinion, it could either be one or both:- 3.1 The flying star #3 could most likely "land" e.g. in your master bedroom or main door. This #3 has to do with relationships. Frankly, unable to advise, you exactly where it is. 3.2 BUT, you may consider "trial and error" Feng Shui by having a night light or a table lamp especially best that has a red shade. usually such a lighting is used to burn or destroy this bad #3. Seriously, even if you asked me, I don't really know exactly which part of your home it should be activated. But since this is a studio = trial and error! 3.3 Unless, you place two singles or if the bed support platform uses two singles next to each other. If so, best that a full (queen sized bed be used). Here, I believe you are using a complete queen sized bed. 4. No harm if you want to do what you had mentioned that you wanted done. 5. As far asI know, this is roughly, the senario.
  16. 1. Frankly, location, location, location is the first importance. 2. For example, the external environment, the site, the block and lastly the unit are equally important. 3. Thus for a better understanding, Feng Shui should be looked in under all areas of Para 2. 4. Yes, usually, the master bedroom is at one end of unit. (in most cases). If in doubt, always try to forgo that unit, unless you sought professional advice (e.g. to review it's layout plan vis-a-vis the compass directions etc..) Quote: Lee I. wrote: I would like to know whether I should purchase a unit where the master bedroom is not the end of the apartment. The common bedroom is at the end.
  17. 1. In my opinion, honestly, it may or may not be coincidence! 2. As normally when we (professional) practitioners have to do an indepth study e.g. of one's home, check one's luck periods etc... 3. Assuming that there are currently no unlucky stars that appear for the home, then, it may be the case (associated) with what you had mentioned. 4. If your favourable elements are yellow (earth) and green/ brown (wood) than it is still best to go with these two colours. 5. In general, if you still continue to suffer an unlucky streak, without much improvement, then there is a higher weightage that this colour may likely have brought you inauspicious luck. Anonymous wrote: I just bought a grey colour car, found out that this colour is most unfavarouble for me. Yellow, green and brown is my favourable colour. I am a salesperson, i feel after having my new car , things doesn't goes smoothly. My previous car is yellow colour. I find things went very smooth are there any other advise or choice that i can do beside changing of the colour of the car? if change of colour can i can to silver colour?
  18. 1. In my opinion, you are trying to compare "apples" with "oranges". 2. For example, the basic idea that north = water, south = fire. Are like apples. Very basic form of the five elements concept. 3. If I were you, seriously if you are into the DIY type of Feng Shui: after reading your sentences: 3.1 A little knowlege is a dangerous thing. 3.2 You (really, really) have a long long (extra long) way to go in understanding, or even comprehending concepts of Five elements vs Eight House (Ba Cai) Feng Shui. 4. I seriously hope that you are not going to practise both "Fast Food" or "Commando style" sounds like but not real Feng Shui.
  19. 1. If the kitchen door is closed most of the time, it can be a "non" issue. However, very often, for practical reasons, few families close the kitchen door as it may be inconvenient to do so. 2. There are cases where some clients, place an automatic door closer for the kitchen door. This is one solution. In some cases where owners often turn on air-con in the living-room, the automatic door closer is an added bonus, here. 3. Never, never compromise on safety! Usually for a partition, especially reasonably "heavy" ones, they should not be used unless they are properly secured or mounted. 4. For example, if one has a heavy four panel (hardwood) partition such as the"Chinese 4 seasons" partition panel; imagine, strong winds blowing often before a thunder storm, it may cause such a panel to fall down - and may hurt someone. Even reasonably light panels may exert some "wind force", topple down and may hurt especially a child in it's way. 5. If possible, the partition :- 5.1 can be "half-height" e.g. up to say the main door frame level. Need not be full height 5.2 need not be fully air tight. 5.3 if customed made, usually the length is 35 inches, 42 inches or at max 49 1/2 inches. width is not as important. 5.4 if some glass piece is found on the partition, avoid, the "shiny" side of the glass facing the main entrance door. 5.5 avoid circular designs or a "circular" fish tank on this partition. 5.6 for the Chinese, especially those of the Cantonese dialect group, they don't like to have a partition in the design of 3 or 4 distanced wooden beams. 5.6 Avoid the edge of the partition slicing towards a dining table or towards the seats of the dining table. 5.7 Avoid the edge of the partition slicing towards the passageway leading into the bedrooms. For Para 5.6 and 5.7, do search for a (VERY)recent message where I had attached an illustration tothem. For now, I can think of these information.
  20. If you have the time, please read this resource by Robert Lee:- Extract from this link APPLYING LOCATION FACTOR INTO BA ZI 3. Using GMT time zone is a bad way to apply the location factor, because GMT timezone only affects the longitude changes. Furthermore, GMT has been simplified so much so it is no longer as accurate as in the past. 4. Our stand on this issue is NOT to add these level of complication to the analysis. Meaning that you should just use your local time (regardless of what country), to analyse the Ba Zi. This is because if you truly understand how the Ba Zi works, the HOUR pillar will not make a major impact in terms of the 10-yearly, 5-yearly, yearly and monthly luck pillars. The hour pillar gives additional pillars available for combinations and clashes, so this can affect the final outcome of a person to be either weak or strong. A day without the hour will give the rough element strength of the day. Only a few hours may result in weak/strong element. Otherwise, not much change will occur. Your luck pillars will not be too badly influenced by the hour impact. Except for minor yearly and chart clash or harms that may occur. But these are minor as your general luck will not alter too much. 5. This is why we can still analyse a person luck fairly well even if you do not provide the hour pillar. Just check out some of the masters who had done case study of famous people, you will noticed that they do it just with the date of birth. They don't even apply any location factor. Ba zi has designed to compensate from the lack of the hour pillar. So with or without the hour of birth, a person's chart can still be charted out. Just that with the hour pillar, your forecast will be more accurate. 6. This is why we find no need to apply location into the Ba Zi. Just use your local time and it should be okay. 7. You must always remember that a Ba Zi is supposed to be a heavenly GIVEN chart of what kind of luck you are supposed to have assuming your environment remains constant. This means it does not consider education, your house (earth luck), people around you, your career etc. However, in real life, how can you expect your environment to be the same all the time. Your luck is always being altered by your house luck, people around you, and your career. Let me give you some example:- 8. Therefore Ba Zi is NOT a tool which can forecast all past events with 100% accuracy. What it can do is give you a forecast of potential pitfalls allowing you to maximise your luck by avoiding the bad period. Many modern practitioners/masters, try to make you think that Ba Zi can give you an accurate assessment of your past and future events. How is this possible, if the concept is only supposed to provide you with a heavenly given luck? 9. So our advice to you is just to leave the hour unknown or unaltered as it is NOT necessary. Read more from this link:- URL: Born which year and what was the changed time? LOL-:) "Singapore has changed time zones 6 times since 1905. From 1933 to 1941, we moved our clocks forward 20 minutes for daylight savings, but then changed it to 30 minutes. During the Japanese occupation in World War II, our clocks were synced with Tokyo, to become 1 hour and 30 minutes ahead of the previous time zone. The most recent switch was in 1982, when our clocks were synchronised with neighbouring Malaysia." [Source & Credit: Gov.sg Factually SG50 Edition: Fun facts about our "little red dot"!]
  21. Sorry, I hope not to sound too harsh in my earlier e-mail. 1. Further to what I had mentioned, I really feel sad that many of are taken in by modern commercial products. And it feels sad that many of such products are circulating around - in the name of "Feng Shui". 2. They should actually be classified as "decorative" items. And not, described as some important - in the name of Feng Shui cure or something like that. 3. Human nature is such: How often do we hear many people saying that when they have problems, one way to side-track their problem is to over-eat. Some of these persons, feel that over eating can simply "wish" their problems away! 4. Thus it is a real pity that many unscrupulous sellers, use this "human weakness" to prey on us to sell us (off-load) such modern commercial products. 5. Holistic approach to Feng Shui is about : 5.1 Fixing the leak first and 5.2 Enhacement (if applicable). 6. I have drawn the illustration of a boat. Many us chose Para 3 type of solution. Thus, many of us are simply enticed to purchase a product, yet, we are not there to fix the real leaks in a home! 7. Remember the story of this boy who saved Holland when he singlely plugged the hole in a wall. Else, when the wall (reservior) breaks, all hells break loose. 8. Thus, many of simply like the over-eating case, purchase too many of these products. And worse, the "ship" we are in gets heavier and heavier and can sink faster! 9. Things like - find the root cause of your problem! Please! http://www.geomancy.net/events/FS_Talk/fs_talk_slide_13.htm 10. In this slide, try to fix the leak, first. Instead of adding useless products to our "ship":- http://www.geomancy.net/events/FS_Talk/fs_talk_slide_6.htm 11. Traditional Feng Shui and even in old Feng Shui texts, they don't even mentioned about commercial products as true Feng Shui should be properly applied thru the true Art and Science of Feng Shui. 12. We should all remember : " When the buying stops, the selling can!" Please spread the message! To our loved ones, family, friends. 13. People who sell commercial products in the name of Feng Shui should be considered as cheats and con persons! 14. Many people are in bad shape and yet, some unfortunately resort to cash advance from credit cards to purchase such (commercial fake Feng Shui products)! http://www.geomancy.net/events/FS_Talk/fs_talk_slide_8.htm 15. To all "FENG SHUI" sellers/distributors ! SHAME ON YOU!
  22. 1. Before, I go to the question, appreciate that you avoid "cut and paste" information wholesale from other sites. I can understand that you want to find out more. But, this is not the right way due to copyright issues and intellectual property rights concerns. 2. One cannot just "cut-paste" without impunity. And you can get the site in trouble. Fortunately, this is a moderated forum. But I have to delete or move the message - creating some work. 3. Frankly, #2 is still acceptable. Given that your 20 year Flying starespecially has #6 big metal. 4. Usually, a common method is to "lock-up" bad stars. Thus,oneMAY consider opening other windows in the home and keep the main door open minimally. 5. Once a month ortwo,especiallyaftera rain, allow the windows andall external doors to get "fresh" or refreshed air intothe home. 6. One should be more concerned if the #5 is at thefrontage. 7.For your home, just make sure that you do not do any major gardening work especially digging at that sector. As it may stir up #2. 8.Traditionally, if work is done especially utitlities department, outside areas with #2 or #5, than "place" metal between the work done and the home. For example a vehicle is considered as metal. Or aluminium foilcan be temporarily placedon the window panes when digging work is carried out at these sectors.
  23. 1. Honestly, although real Feng Shui is scientific, your question is akin to the concept of "a needle in the hay stack". 2. Frankly, as mentioned earlier, the entire wordings on the description of the commercial product "the ba gua (pakua) is merely a sales gimmick. 3. Do you know that proper Feng Shui application is not about a "hit and miss situation". 4. Proper Feng Shui is about:- 4.1 IDENTIFYING MAJOR "leaks" in a home and/or office. 4.2 Maximizing qi flow using authentic methods. 5. Thus, it is not so simplistic as since you say that the pakua I placed is not correct, what do you suggest. Frankly, how would I know what is wrong with your home? Authentic Feng Shui is about zooming in into problem areas. And not just one or two line questions. 6. Honestly, no wonder, most people continue to face the same problems - in a vicious circle of poverty, or related problems. And most certainly commercial products only benefit the seller and does nothing good to anyone esle. Thus, your approach is definitely, like the image of a dog, chasing after it's tail! Anonymous wrote: Then what do you suggest for my home ?
  24. 1. Sorry, I read wrongly. Thanks for the clarification. 2. Frankly, in my opinion, (unfortunately) what you had purchased, I have never heard before this item. 3. Most likely it is a commercial product. And personally feel there is no precedence nor - any use for it.
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